Career Links Vol 5 No 1 October 2006

Building a Case for a New Career:

anita.jpg (51 KB) Anita Tebbe

An Interview with Anita Tebbe, Career Program Facilitator and Professor, Paralegal Program

Interviewed by Tracie Grisolano
Career Information Specialist
Career Services Center

As paralegals begin to perform tasks once performed solely by attorneys, job opportunities for those with paralegal training are increasing. Despite this increase, the job market is competitive, with employers placing emphasis on both education and experience. Formal education in a paralegal program can be an asset to applicants seeking to obtain the best jobs available in the field.

Approved by the American Bar Association, the JCCC paralegal program is a challenging one that requires students to possess excellent critical thinking and communication skills as well as a high level of motivation. Two options are available to students. Students who already possess an associate’s or bachelor’s degree may pursue a paralegal certificate. Those who do not already hold a degree may pursue an Associate of Arts degree.

For more information about the paralegal program, contact Anita Tebbe by phone at (913) 469-8500 Ext. 3184 or by email at atebbe@jccc.edu. You can also visit the paralegal program’s Web site at http://www.jccc.net/home/depts/1206.

Career Services Center: Can you tell me what your current job is at JCCC and give an overview of what you do here?

Anita Tebbe: Yes, I’m career facilitator of the paralegal and legal nurse consultant programs. I also am a full-time professor. My workload is actually twelve hours of teaching and three hours of administrative work.

CSC: Which classes do you teach?

AT: I teach the basic classes in the spring: Introduction to Law and Paralegal Studies. Those are for folks who are thinking about entering the paralegal program. Then during the fall semester, I teach those two plus Employment Law, which is an upper level course. In the summer I teach the two beginning classes, Introduction to Law and Paralegal Studies, plus Business Law, which isn’t part of the paralegal program, but I like teaching a variety of courses, so I pick that up in the summer.

CSC: Can you tell me what a paralegal is?

AT: A paralegal is an assistant to an attorney, and paralegals are different than legal secretaries in that they do less administrative work. Paralegals’ job duties include interviewing clients, doing legal research, and drafting documents. Depending upon the nature of the attorney’s work, like a family law practice, the paralegal could have a lot of contact with the clients. The work varies depending on the kind of practice a paralegal is employed in.

CSC: Can you tell me a little bit about your career path—how you came to be in the field of legal studies and even in education?

AT: I was a high school teacher for eighteen years. When I was going to college many years ago, there seemed to be two career paths for women who received higher education: they became either a teacher or a nurse. I knew I didn’t want to be a nurse. Even though my father was a medical doctor, I just had no inclination toward that. So by process of elimination, I became a teacher, and it was a wonderful combination. I taught history, English, and government for eighteen years at the high school level and then decided I wanted a new challenge. At that time it was much more acceptable or common for women to become doctors, lawyers, or engineers. I had always enjoyed law as part of my interest in history and political science—my undergraduate degree was in history. I decided I wasn’t getting any younger, so I went to law school. My plan was to practice law and be a traditional attorney, but after a year away from education, I really missed teaching. In the back of my mind I thought, “I’m going to finish this degree, but I really want to combine my love of law with my love of teaching.” After I got out of law school, I started teaching part-time here and at other schools in the area: Rockhurst University, Longview Community College, and a few others. Within a year this position at JCCC opened up full-time, so that’s what I did. I still practice law, but very minimally. I really, really love the teaching of law rather than the practice of law, but I keep my hand involved in it so I can keep myself fresh in what’s going on in the law profession.

CSC: What would you say sets the JCCC paralegal program apart from other programs in the Kansas City area?

AT: There are quite a few programs in the area. One of our distinguishing marks is that we’re approved by the American Bar Association. It’s our accrediting body. Of all the schools in the nation—there are probably over a thousand different paralegal programs—only 260 are approved by the American Bar Association. It’s a very strict accreditation process that we go through. We file reports every two years, and then we have a visit to our campus every seven years. Our school and Avila University on the Missouri side and Missouri Western in Saint Joseph are the only three in the area that are approved by the ABA. Now that doesn’t mean that the others aren’t good programs. For various reasons, they might not want to become ABA approved. It’s a very tedious process; it’s a very expensive process. But those that are ABA approved really stand out. You can say the ABA approved programs have gone the extra mile. Those that have chosen not to become ABA approved might still be excellent programs, but for various reasons haven’t chosen to pursue the approval process. I’d say that’s our huge mark of distinction. Our program was started in 1977 by Mike Pener, who’s still a full-time faculty member. He realized the importance of the ABA. By 1980—you have to be in existence for a couple of years before you can even apply—he went through the process, and we were approved. We’ve been re-approved continually since that time.

CSC: I saw on one of the pages of the JCCC Web site that you’re a member of the board that grants approval.

AT: Yes, in fact I’m the chair of that board. It’s called the Approval Commission. It’s made up of thirteen educators: about half are attorneys, and half are paralegals. We go around and visit schools, and that’s a wonderful experience. You learn so much from meeting with your colleagues. And it’s a service; it’s a way of giving back to education.

CSC: Do we have a selective admissions process for the JCCC paralegal program?

AT: Yes, we do.

CSC: Can you tell me what that involves?

AT: Yes, there are actually four steps. The first is to take these two beginning classes that I mentioned: Introduction to Law and Paralegal Studies. The whole purpose of those classes is for students to determine if they are really interested in the program. So many of our students are nontraditional, and money and time are just so important. We don’t want them to get into the program fifteen, sixteen hours and say, “That’s great, but that’s not really what I want.” I tell our students that within three weeks of being in these two courses, they’ll know if this is for them. The one-hour Paralegal Studies class tells them everything about the profession: how a paralegal is distinguished from an attorney and a legal secretary, what the salaries are, what the job opportunities are, and what the areas of practice are—more than you ever wanted to know, as I like to say to the students. The Introduction to Law class is like an English survey course or an American history survey course. It covers fourteen chapters, all the major areas of law: one of the chapters is on contract law, one is on constitutional law, one is on criminal law, and one is on real estate. You get the whole gamut. In one course you get the theory of law, and in the other you get the practice of the paralegal profession. You put those two together, and you know if this is for you or not. So that’s the first step.

The second step is to take a critical analysis test; it’s called the Watson-Glaser critical analysis test. You have to score twenty-five or better. The purpose of that test is to validate with students that the paralegal career is a good choice for them. If you would score an eighteen or fifteen, this field just isn’t for you. It doesn’t mean you’re smart, you’re dumb, you’re bright, or anything else. It just means you might want to look in another area. Again, it’s just confirming for the students that they have the strengths and the abilities they’ll need to be successful in this field.

The third step is to fill out an application form, and the fourth and last is to have an interview. Usually, I or one of the other teachers interviews the students in a one-on-one setting. Basically, we want to find out if students have any questions about the profession or our program and go over the curriculum with them. Those are the four steps.

The three deadlines are October 1, April 1, and July 1. We usually have twenty-five to thirty students come in each semester. Students will call me occasionally and say, “It’s really hard to get into the program.” And I say, “If you want to get in the program, you’ll get in the program. We’re just going to have you take a few steps to confirm that this is a good decision.” We’re not trying to keep people out. The process consists of these four steps: taking the introductory courses; passing the Watson-Glaser critical analysis test, which is not difficult to do; filling out an application, which takes about three minutes; and going through an interview, which takes about fifteen or twenty minutes. If you are interested in the program, then I suggest you pursue that path.

CSC: So it’s not like you get 100 applications and you only have twenty-five slots, and those slots are the limit.

AT: No, and that’s a huge distinction between us, and, say, the nursing program on campus. It’s not an elimination process. It’s a process of trying to help you determine if this is a good decision.

CSC: I think that’s a great idea.

AT: I wish I could say that it was an idea that we dreamed up. In 1990 when the American Bar Association visited us, our attrition rate was about fifty percent. They said, “Why don’t you put more emphasis on who comes into the program rather than putting all this time into training people who don’t finish?” So we came up with this selective admission program. I’m not sure selective is the right word because it sounds like we’re trying to keep people out. It’s been the best thing we’ve ever done. If we have thirty people in a Paralegal Studies class, about half of them will continue in the program, and the other half will say, “Well, that’s interesting, but that’s not really what I want to do or not quite what I thought.” All I have to do at the beginning of the semester is just see the number of people we have in the Paralegal Studies classes and halve that, and I come pretty close to the number of applicants that we’re going to have. I think it’s accomplishing its purpose. The Introduction to Law class—of course, I have a huge bias, but our other two full-time faculty members would tell you this, too—anybody on campus should take that course. It’s just Law 101. It’s basic rights and responsibilities that we have, and the three of us that are full-time fight over teaching this course. We love it. It just opens up so many vistas to our students. I will say to them at the beginning of the class, “Everybody on campus should take this course.” Well, that’s like a French teacher saying, “Everybody should learn French.” Obviously, I come from my own bias, but I have a number of students that will say to me afterward—and they have nothing to really gain from it—that they’re going to recommend it to their friends. It’s just Law 101. Everyone can use the information, so some students just take it because they’ve heard it’s a good course. But if you’re coming into the program or thinking of it, you have to take it as a prerequisite.

CSC: So once someone decides that he or she wants to enter the paralegal program, what kind of options do we have available?

AT: We have two programs. We have the certificate program, and we have the Associate of Arts degree. Sixty percent of the students who enter our program have a four-year degree or higher, so they’re put into our certificate program. Anyone who has an associate’s degree or higher is in the certificate program, which is thirty-three hours. Everybody who goes through our program takes at least thirty-three hours—that’s the minimum. Those who don’t have an associate’s degree must add on thirty-one general education hours, so the program is then sixty-four hours. When potential students call me, they often ask, “How many hours is the program?” I say, “It’s somewhere between thirty-three and sixty-four, depending on your education.” Some students may have taken some general educational classes such as English 101 or a math class. I tell them that sixty-four is the maximum number of hours they would be required to take, but obviously if a student transfers in credit, those general education hours are going to drop. Students can go through the program as slowly or as quicklyt as they want. We have what I call our fast-track people who only need to take thirty-three hours. They’ll often complete the program in three semesters. They’ll take the prerequisite courses, which count toward their thirty-three hours, in their first semester. Then they have twenty-nine hours left, and they split those hours between the fall and spring semesters.

CSC: I did read on your Web site that it is highly recommended to have a four-year degree to be competitive in the job market.

AT: And let me qualify that. Certainly, in bigger cities, like Chicago and New York, not only do you have to have the paralegal certificate, but you also have to have that four-year degree. In this area, we see our Associate of Arts graduates get jobs. There are jobs out there. The difference is that the more education you have, the better job you’re going to get, meaning a more challenging job and a better paying job. Your level of education will make a difference in $2000 to $3000 in your starting pay. There’s no secret about this in any career field. For example, if someone with a master’s degree in education applies for the same teaching positions as a person with a bachelor’s degree, most employers will look at that master’s degree and say, “That makes a difference.” The person with the master’s degree will have more job opportunities and his/her pay scale will be different. Our associate folks, who make up forty percent of our program, get jobs, but they’re going to start at, as I said, $2000 to $3000 less than those who have bachelor’s degrees. The positions might not be the cream of the crop of the jobs because if you’re competing with a person who has at least a four-year degree, most people will choose the person that is better educated. We encourage our two-year folks to go on and get a four-year degree just to give themselves more job opportunities. That doesn’t mean that the day they walk out of here they have to continue. We have some strong articulation agreements, transfer agreements, with National American University, Avila University, Ottawa University, Baker University, MidAmerica Nazarene University and Washburn University. We really promote going on and getting a bachelor’s degree, but again, on your schedule. If you can do it right away, certainly do. If this just isn’t going to be an option for you, you’re going to still get a good job.

Some of the larger law firms in Kansas City—in fact, I think there’s one—won’t allow you to actually have the title “paralegal” unless you have the four-year degree. And that’s been true, I think, in the eighteen years that I’ve been here. The students get all nervous. They say, “Oh, wow, we have to get that four year degree or we won’t get a job.” And I say, “It certainly will help you, but it’s not going to eliminate jobs for you.” The larger law firms, which are the best-paying, can be choosier. If that’s the kind of job you’re aiming for, and I certainly encourage people to go as high as they can, then you do want to look seriously at that four-year degree.

CSC: If a student decides to pursue the four-year degree, are there certain degrees that complement the associate’s degree? Should the four-year degree always be in legal studies?

AT: That’s a good question. The answer is no. When I am acting as a reference for a student who is applying for jobs, I’ve had employers ask, “Does the person have a four-year degree?” They’ve asked me that question a number of times. They never have asked me—I’ve always found this interesting—what that four-year degree is in. Those of us that go to law school have a strong English background; oftentimes, government. We’re seeing a lot of law today move more toward the business area, so a degree in business administration or accounting can be helpful. Certainly, the law area, like any, is becoming so high-tech that the more you know about computers the better. But there is no one degree or major that a person is required to have. The majority of people that go to law school have the background that I just mentioned, although I can think of peers in my law school class who majored in drama and nursing. It’s just all over the field, but people tend to be more inclined toward law if they have that social science or English background.

CSC: What characteristics are good for a person to have to be successful as a paralegal and also to be successful in the JCCC paralegal program as a student?

AT: Having good organizational skills, excellent oral and written communication skills, solid computer abilities, and strong analytical reasoning are the four that I would mention. I jokingly say to the students enrolled in Paralegal Studies, “I don’t want you to excel in all of those because we wouldn’t have anything to teach you.” If organization is your strong suit or at least you’re an organized person, that’s certainly going to help you, and hopefully the program will help you build on that foundation.

CSC: Is there anything that a prospective student can or should do to prepare himself or herself for entering the program?

AT: I wouldn’t think so, except to focus on those skills I mentioned. Any courses you can take in oral or written communication would be helpful. Certainly, business courses are good preparation. You just cannot be too computer literate these days, so keeping your computer skills current is important. I think that’s across the board. That’s not unique to the legal profession.

CSC: Is there an internship required as part of this program?

AT: It’s not required. It’s optional, but we really encourage our students to do an internship, especially those who have no experience in the legal profession. We have a number of students who come into our program that have worked in law offices in various roles. They might have been legal secretaries or document clerks; they might actually be called paralegals, and they don’t have the formal education. There is no regulation of paralegals, so if you want to call yourself a paralegal or I want to call myself a paralegal, we could call ourselves that. Obviously, those in the profession don’t like that. If you wanted to call yourself an attorney, you couldn’t do that because you have to be licensed.

I’ll just give you an example of a student who was a perfect candidate for an internship. He’s been out of our program about ten years. Felix came into our program after twenty years in the military. He tells me that—I don’t remember this—he was sitting in my office, and I said, “You of all people need to get an internship. You need some experience. You’ve got this wonderful military background. You’ve got a four-year degree. You’re a bright man, but you need to have that experience. That’s going to be your one drawback.” And that’s what I preach a lot, especially when I’m interviewing students. I especially try to look out for those folks that would be like Felix: wonderful educational background, good strong work history, bright people, but they don’t have that experience. That’s probably one thing that our advisory board will criticize us for is that our students graduate without experience.

In ‘91 we went from an applied science degree to an associate of arts degree, and the state of Kansas won’t allow you to require an internship in an associate of arts degree. You can only do it in applied science, but the legal profession favors the associate of arts degree. Although we no longer require the internship, we really work closely with the students, especially with students who have no legal experience, to do what benefits them. We believe very strongly in the experiential aspect of education.

CSC: Do those students who choose to do an internship typically complete it in their last semester?

AT: At this point, they can do it anytime. We’re in the process of changing that. We really have an emphasis on legal ethics. That’s one of our required courses. We have four required courses, and most students will take Civil Litigation, Legal Research, Legal Writing, and then Legal Ethics. They might take Legal Ethics their second semester, or if they’re here for a while, it might be their fourth or fifth semester. We are requesting that students are either taking or have completed Legal Ethics when doing an internship, so that’s going to encourage students to take their four basic courses at the beginning of the program—research, writing, civil litigation, and ethics. That’s important, but we also really want students to understand conflict of interest and some of these really fundamental principles when they do an internship. At this point there are no requirements, but we’re in the process of changing that.

CSC: What are some of the companies or organizations that would employ JCCC students after they complete their program here?

AT: Law firms, government agencies, and corporations: those are the three main employers. The law firms are then small, medium, and large. The majority of the employers for our graduates are law firms. Because of the data we get from institutional research, we have a really good idea of what types of positions our new graduates receive—working in the litigation area. At the beginning level, a lot of graduates work in the litigation area. In the Kansas City area, the bigger law firms are the better-paying law firms. The people with more experience tend to apply for those jobs, so applicants for those positions would be competing probably against some of the more seasoned paralegals in the area. The large firms are the best paid in regard to starting salaries and bonuses. Sometimes, however, there are small and medium-sized firms that compete against them because they don’t like to have high turnover in their employees.

Government work is also available to our graduates. We have a number of our students who work at the Johnson County Trustees’ Office. They deal with child support matters. I think there are twenty to twenty-five paralegals who work in the trustees’ office, and about twenty of them are our graduates. And I, of course, am always delighted with that. It just so happens that the paralegal manager is a graduate of our program, so it’s nice to have those kinds of connections. We also have a large number of paralegals that work in the Johnson County District Attorney’s Office. Again, I would guess there are twenty to twenty-five of them, and I’d say three-fourths of them are graduates of our program. The disadvantage in working for the government is it has always tended to be the lowest paid, but the huge advantage is that there’s stability there—and your benefits are terrific. So there are pluses and minuses there. Also, and again this is more than you wanted to ever know, law firms have what we call billable hours where paralegal have to always keep track of what they do every day. In an eight-hour day, some law firms require that six of those hours are billable: that you are actually doing paralegal work such as interviewing clients and reviewing documents and not running the copier or straightening out the files. That’s more administrative work, and you can’t bill the clients for that. Some people consider that to be an albatross around their neck: accounting for every minute of their time and meeting a six-hour quota. So one of the tremendous advantages to working for the government is that you don’t have to worry about billable hours, which some people find incredibly burdensome. Other people say, “It’s just part of life.” You get used to doing this, and you just keep track of your time on a computer software program.

Your best job in the Kansas City area is to work in the corporate field, like for Hallmark or Sprint. They’re the best-paid positions, the benefits are terrific, and they don’t have billable hours. I say to our students, “Well, anybody with an ounce of sense would say, ‘Well, heck, when I get out of here, I’m going for a corporate job. That’s where the action is.’” And I say, “Good luck, and I hope you can do it. But guess what? There are people that are trying to get in there that have the experience.” So the majority of our students, at least on the get-go, are hired by law firms and the government. Some of them do get corporate jobs, but just because of the competition, usually they don’t get that right after completing the program.

CSC: What would a typical day be like for a paralegal?

AT: Well, I’m going to give you one of those answers you don’t want to hear. There is no typical day. And I only say that because just last week in our paralegal studies class, we had three practicing paralegals come in. And that’s always one of the questions the students will ask: what’s the typical day? And the paralegals say, “Well, there isn’t any.” It’s often based on the emergency of the day and the needs of the attorneys, and unfortunately we attorneys are known to be—organization isn’t usually our strong suit. We’re kind of last-minute procrastinators, so unfortunately paralegals spend some time putting out fires. It may be the kind of situation where an attorney all of a sudden says, “I need this done yesterday!” Then that task can take up your whole day, or you may need to meet with clients at a moment’s notice. It’s not like this all the time, depending on your practice, but the nature of law is that it revolves around people’s lives, which change really quickly. If there’s been a death, then you handle the probate process. If there’s been a bad car accident, then you deal with that situation. If the judge has ordered a client to show up in court tomorrow morning, then you have to get ready to be there. It can be very fast paced and very unpredictable. Some people love that, and other people decide that it is just a bit much for them. There really is no typical day, at least from point of view of these practicing paralegals.

I always bring in at least two panels of paralegals to talk with students. I always say to the folks that come in, “Just tell the students what you would’ve liked to have known when you were a student, and tell us what it’s like in the real world.” And sometimes students will think that I prep the paralegals and tell them what to say. I tell them, “I have much better sense than that. You would never tell a paralegal what to say because they would just say the opposite. These are bright, seasoned professionals; they’ve got their act together.”

We have three major paralegal organizations in the city, and two are on the Kansas side. One night the panel consists of representatives from KPA (Kansas Paralegals Association), and one night it consists of members of HALA (Heartland Association of Legal Assistants). Both groups are so supportive of our programs. They give money for scholarships, they mentor our students, they come in and visit with them, they leave their cards for students to call them. We are incredibly fortunate to be in an area where there is such a supportive environment. Obviously a number of the visiting paralegals are graduates of our program, and they’re very loyal to our program. I could pick up a phone and call ten of them and ask them a favor and nine out of ten would say yes, if not ten out of ten.

CSC: Do paralegals specialize in certain areas of law like attorneys do?

AT: Well, it depends on the firm and the attorney that they work for.

CSC: The attorney’s specialty becomes the paralegal’s specialty?

AT: Usually. And attorneys may move from specialty to specialty; in fact, attorneys do move around a lot. When I first got into this profession, I found that rather different. I’ve got a Bar directory that lists about 1200 members of the Johnson County Bar. The directory comes out every year, and before it’s out, it’s outdated because people change firms, they change areas. And that’s true of paralegals, too. One of the paralegals who usually comes to visit with our students, Tara, really likes medical malpractice. The attorney she’s been working for for seven years just broke away from Wallace Saunders, a very influential law firm, and started his own practice, and she went with him. They’re now focusing on medical malpractice. A paralegal’s area of specialization depends a lot on what attorney he or she is assigned to. Sometimes a paralegal is assigned to three or four attorneys; sometimes it’s kind of a one-on-one relationship. Again, it depends on how the firm is structured.

CSC: It’s great that there are so many different options within the field of law. Everybody should be able to find a special area of interest.

AT: Students have asked me about that: “Why can’t I just take classes in Family Law? I’m really interested in that.” And I explain to them that the three of us who are full-time faculty somewhat reflect our own paths as attorneys. When we were in law school, we received a generalist type of education: we took contract law, we took constitutional law, we took family law, we took juvenile law. We didn’t just take all environmental law. We had to do the wide sweep. Now during the second semester of the second year and during the senior year, we could take more electives, so we could somewhat focus on certain areas, but we just really couldn’t do ninety percent of our law study in one particular area. And we have the same generalist approach with our students. We’re really more interested in them having firm litigation skills, especially since so many of them go into that. We’re known for being very strong in our research, writing, and civil litigation areas and then our fourth cornerstone, ethics. Those are just the fundamentals, and the students have to get them. Now if they want to take family law, if they want to take intellectual property, if they want to take wills, they have to take fourteen hours of electives, and they really have a wide variety of courses to choose from. But they can’t take Family Law I, Family Law II, Family Law III, Family Law IV. We make them take courses in a variety of areas.

CSC: Then if they decide there’s a special area they want to focus on in practice, that specialization occurs more on the job rather than during their educational time?

AT: Yes, and we have a number of graduates who come back and tell us that they were all of a sudden thrown into the worker’s compensation area and they never took the work comp. course. Or all of a sudden they’re into intellectual property and they never took that class. And we love those students because they keep us honest. We’ll start spouting stuff off and they say, “That’s not the way it works.” And we’ll say, “Oh, okay, well tell us how it works.” So we use those folks to our advantage, to learn more about what’s happening in the profession and tailor our program appropriately.

CSC: Are there any downsides, and disadvantages, to being a paralegal?

AT: Probably, and I tell this to students when I first meet them. I know one student who is very bright, and she said she probably is not going to enter the program because of this huge downside: the salary. Beginning salary for a person with an Associate of Arts degree from our program will be $25,000 to $30,000 a year. To some people, that’s good. But for nontraditional students like we have in our program, whose average age is probably thirty-five to forty, that salary is not a good one. These folks are used to making some good money. Now that’s just the starting salary, without bonuses, and you can advance. We see people with four-year degrees make $30,000 to $32,000 a year as a starting salary. The woman I mentioned has been a successful person in real estate, and she says, “Wow, I’m just not sure I can live on that.” A number of our students are divorced women, and they’re single supporters of their family. Again, that salary is not very appealing to them. I wish I could change that.

So that is the downside, and I’m real up-front about that with people who call me and inquire about the program, especially when I hear that someone has a four-year degree and has been working somewhere for twenty years. Before we get too far into the conversation or when I’m responding to an email, I’ll say, “I need to tell you about the salary.” We want everybody to understand what the rules are before they come into the program. It’s not that I’m happy about the salary, but I don’t control that. Some students look at it and say, “Yeah, okay, well, you gotta’ pay your dues,” but there is that small group who are really going to have a tough time with it.

CSC: What are the greatest benefits or rewards of being a paralegal?

AT: It’s a very people-oriented profession. You have a lot of contact with individuals. You’re not just sitting at a computer all day, and not that there’s anything wrong with that, but if you like interaction with people, you’ll get it in this field. It’s also very much a helping profession, helping people who have some legal matters that they need to deal with. I’d say those are the two tremendous assets, and that’s what draws people to the profession.